We need your help

[mwk]

I'll ask one more time.......then I'm done....Post the minutes from the meeting.

You have only given half answers.....Lay out your plan for everyone to read.

I'm all for ppl helping the glades or the lagoon but I've found in life most ppl and groups have a self serving agenda.

See you threw Hal's name out there now you got Billy wetting his pants.

I'll ask one more time Post your whole plan ezpz.

For all I know your agenda and mine could be the same but this beating around the bush on the subject leaves me to believe there is something there
that us rec fisherman ain't gonna like.

[flatbroke]

Originally Posted by Scooter

Mike doesn't need to answer that , I'll answer it it for him . He respects and does his best to preserve the flats that we fish as much as anyone out there . Not dissing you for asking but ...Mike's a stand up guy ...not just an internet bull****ter like some folks .
My question , just to clear this up a bit ....are the guides in your group looking for " pole and troll/No motor zones" that are accesible to guides/commercial only ?

No not at all.. Nothing we are suggesting is for one more than the other. Wehere a guide fishes and how he fishes is the same places that a person coming to Florida can fish. As for pole and no motor. We want a common sence approach to happen to flats fishing. All areas will be accesable but the crowns of the flats need to be a no destroy zone. Meening that once off the main route you can idle to your area (none of these are far) and then pole or trolling motor in the extreme shallows. Most of these area are no more than a hundred yards from deep water. It would be nothing like the upper banana river area where you have to idle for what seems like miles. The open bays and lakes would still be runnable and there would be no areas asked to be closed off. All we are wanting is that the fish have a calm place to feeed and hunt and the shallow grasses get the protection they deserve, The reason the whole plan has not been posted yet is the distance we are all dealing with each other here. I am waiting on a copy of the original power point presentation to be sent to me so I can change the format so it can be posted on the internet and have DVDs of it made so we can get the exact plan in everyones hands that want it. I am not the writer of this plan and I dont want to miss-quote it and have mistakes made. It is too important to me to have it messed up by a typo. A version of our plan was put out there by a group wanting nothing done to help and the information was altered to make our plan look disasteous. They used wrongly marked maps and if I had not known what was happening I would have tooth and nail not to let that plan happen. I just want to make sure whn I can post the information it is 100% accurate. That is the reason I have not posted it yet.
As for pesonal gain I cant think of how it would benifit me other than saving a place I know and love. I dont guide there anymore nor would I make any financial gain from this. Something in this area is going to happen and we just want it to be the right thing. I do appologize for getting heated yesterday but I am getting almost threatening e-mails from what appears to be someone associated in this group for trying to help Florida Bay.

[mwk]

Fair enough.........I'm looking forward to seeing your plan when all is complete.

I'm not against P-N-T zones.......even if they take a little work to get to.

One thing we have seen with our PNT in the lagoon is lack of enforcement.

Which pretty much nulls and voids any good that would come with it.

You sure you are getting emails from someone on this site.......some of us might be aholes......but I don't think anyone I know on this site would do that.

[JRH]

There is an article in this month's issue of Fly Fishing in Salt Waters Magazine that addresses the issue Flatbroke was speaking of before Mikey ran him off.

The article talks about the proposal by Hal Chittum and other guides. I believe it's Alternative F.


These are some of the proposals of Alternative F:


1. capping the size of motors used in Park waters to no more than 90 horsepower

2. "protect the environment through water depth" by requesting sanctions against the running of internal combustion engines in waters less than 3 feet deep at low tide.

3. Capping current guide permits at their present number.


4. The implementation of a mandatory ENP stakeholder education course for boaters who enter Park waters.


5. The requirement that boaters entering Park waters purchase an annual Boater's Permit. These permits, which would also be required for boaters who enter ENP from the Upper Keys and Everglades City, would be issued upon completion of a mandatory stakeholder education course. As an additional part of the requirement, anglers, as well as guides would be required to file catch reports that would facilitate monitoring various aspects of the ENP fishery.


6. An increase in fines for violators.



7. The hiring of more Park Rangers.



8. As an Addendum to the GMP, Chittum's group requests the repair of several dikes that once controlled the flow of fresh water into certain sections of the backcountry....

[JRH]

P.S. I think that plan sucks.

There is no way to enforce a 90hp limit as well as "running in less than 3 feet at low tide."

[The Volfish]

3. Capping current guide permits at their present number.

[phlatsphil]

Originally Posted by The Volfish

3. Capping current guide permits at their present number.

our free market system sort of does that anyway.

[Capt Billy Rotne]

Originally Posted by The Volfish

3. Capping current guide permits at their present number.

LOL that will never happen.

Every guide in the lagoon or anywhere else that requires a permit, wishes that they would close the permits to any new guides. But the bottom line is that simply isn't fair. Everyone who wants to purchase a permit can or no one at all. It has to be one or the other.

A lot of other unrealistic requests. Rather disappointing considering who it came from. Sounds more like someones dream than an actual functioning plan.

[james_trice]

This is from Jim Trice and is all personal opinion, except the letter from Capt. Tad Burke - below. First, let me say the Corby's parents are my in-laws best friends. His father helped my wife get a job at FPL when I was a Junior at U of Miami, thus helped us have food to eat. A fact! Corby is a brother, but we don't agree on this one.

As one of the six that spent hundreds of hours on research and in meetings to craft Alternative E, with input from many diverse groups and people, and support from thousands to include business leaders, guides, anglers, paddlers, government and conservation groups, I would like to share, I do NOT SUPPORT any of the ideas from Hal or John, except education. In my personal opinion, this is not a plan, it is a short list of disconnected ideas being driven by scare tactics and promised legal action if their ideas are not adopted. Hal, even told me PETA would be involved. Threats of legal action, even from people that have lots of experience in courts, turns me off.

They refuse to acknowledge any other idea exists except their ideas, and weighed in AFTER the last public comment period was closed. We have been involved in this since 2002 and will continue to do so. They refuse to acknowledge or respect the hard work and leadership put in by Dan Kimball, Park Super, whom has truly been a fine, balanced leader for all.

They are in the process of putting ammo in the guns of the the wrong members of the NPS and exactly what extreme environmental groups have been praying would pop up. If we are not together as recreational anglers, guides, wildlife viewers and paddlers when the next set of Preliminary Alternatives are published we will all lose. The answer is NOT do nothing. That is as absurd as Chittum and Kipp's thoughts in my mind.

After talking with Hal, I personally feel he could care less about Hells Bay, Joe Bay or anything about the GMP, but where it impacts where he use to tarpon fish. He remembers years when the tarpon fishing was better in Garfield Bight and Palm Lake so he advocates troll/pole only in all waters like them. He remembers when the tarpon fishing was great around Sandy Key. Fishing is great in the Park right now and we will always have bad to great years. Frankly, the bonefish and tarpon fishing is still good too. They just don't run the same predictable routes and are not as easy to catch without lots of scouting and hard work. You cannot fish the Park a few days a year or be in a rut chasing the OLD fishing holes and catch many fish now days.

In conclusion, they are not helping anyone and the Islamorada Guides don't deserve to have their reputation hit because John Kipp is from here and is a member of the FL Keys Fishing Guides Association - again, in my personal opinion.

As I conclude, I hope we all do realize Mother Nature IS going to change the Park. Salt water intrustion due to water rise, impacting bait fish and birds and fishing as we know it today, is only a matter of time. Yes, the fishing will change, but it will always be good, just different than the old days - IF we take care of the fishery and catch and release all but what we are going to eat that night - if we must harvest.

P.S. For several years I have been part of a group that is advising the Park on behalf of a $3M grant from a private donor and friend, along with 3 other members of the Alternative E group, to improve enforcement and education and we have been all OVER the dams busting from Wilma and from erosion for years, not recent days. I don't care how much money you have to give a way, finding more GOOD/QUALIFIED/PEOPLE CARING Rangers is not a lay up, nor is getting permitting for major infrastructure changes or marker approvals from the USCG, in a national park. Hal and John make things sound so simple and have NO CLUE. The ENP is not as simple as a small boat business or a tackle/clothing shop.

As a member of Alternative E, a person busing my arse for all users of the Park for many years, NOT JUST WHAT I PERSONALLY WANT, I am have no more time for Chittum or Kipp. PERIOD!

An official response from one of our members, on behalf of all Alternative E writers follows.

A Press Release from Capt. Tad Burke, Commodore, Florida Keys Fishing Guides Association on behalf of the Alternative E working group

Eight months ago the public comment period closed regarding the Everglades General Management Plan (GMP) Preliminary Alternatives. The National Park Service (NPS) is revising its initial alternatives and we expect to see them released in the next few months.


Recent articles in “Fly Fishing in Saltwater” magazine and “Florida Fishing Weekly,” reported that shallow water skiff builder Hal Chittum, Captain John Kipp and a few other fishing guides feel that the Everglades ecosystem is on the verge of collapse.


According to the articles, two primary recommendations by the group are to:

1. Ban the use of combustible engines over 90 HP in the ENP
2. Prohibit the use of internal-combustion engines in water less than three feet deep at low tide.


The articles appear to have created some confusion among individuals and groups that signed on in support of the principals of Alternative E.


We want to clarify that Alternative E does not support banning engines over 90 hp or banning the use of combustible motors in less than 3 feet of water.


The Florida Keys Fishing Guides Association, The Key Largo Fishing Guides Association, Islamorada Fishing and Conservation Trust, Marathon Fishing Guides Association, Lower Keys Fishing Guides Association, Key Largo and Islamorada’s Chambers of Commerce, Municipalities in the Florida Keys and the SFWMD continue to support the principals outlined in Alternative E.


We are painfully aware that the main problems in the National Park have to do with water quality, quantity and timing. While propeller scars are an issue, several sections of Alternative E address ways to reduce their impact without limiting access. Our goal remains to protect the ENP resource through education, enforcement and reasonable management zones to assure the park remains accessible to the people.


Our feedback and experience indicates that most anglers and guides are of the opinion that snook, redfish, seatrout, mackerel, tripletail and the ENP fishery in general, with the exception of bonefish and tarpon, is as good as it has been for decades.


The Everglades Everglades National Park is a true treasure and there is much evidence that we, the users, are the most essential stewards. Select and restricted access is not an option. The park is for everyone that has received education about the Park, to include every income group, nationality, age group and traditional user group.


Freshen yourself on Alternative E by going to our website below.

http://www.alternativee.com/